Race class solutions?

sand.man

Well-Known Member
I don't remember this being an issue last year, and there were probably more intermediates catching and passing a few experts in 2014... I personally enjoyed it.

If you're afraid to make passes at the pace you're riding, maybe you're riding over your head, I think someone said it already "that sounds like racing".
 

SetUpSixRR

EMRA Executive Member
If Shane moves up to expert and Justin is cool with passing the slower experts thwn problem solved.

But if the grid majority feels a change is necessary i vote just adding some time between the starts.

Justin (E) can look at it this way, passing experts in the last half of your race will be excellent practice and experience.
 

Ryno

Active Member
I agree with Brian and Todd. I think minor tweaks are in order before anything major. I'd like to see a review of the procedure from last season on the starts. I believe it was the Int's were started once the last exp was in or clear of turn 5. If we went back to this I think it would solve a lot of issues. that's my 11 cents :)
 

Fireman

Well-Known Member
I am looking forward to discussing this at the exec meeting. I am confident in whatever decision that the exec makes for the safety of our club members.
 

Jason Henton

Active Member
I don't race the affected classes, but I do like to watch them, and from that perspective why not base grid position and wave number off qualifying times? Ie. first wave is mixed int and expert running below 1.25 (or whatever) second wave is anyone above? This would allow riders of equal speeds to run together, or allow a rider to sandbag a bit and try to pickup a front row start with the second wave in hopes of picking up a few laps of smooth sailing at the penalty of being stuck behind the slower 1st wavers. Also, I find it entertaining to watch and see how the race leaders use the lapped rider to their advantage while jockeying for positions, it gets a bit boring watching 2-3 fast guys at the front just running fast laps.
 

macbayne

Active Member
I see the present situation as a non-issue. Delaying the INT start so that the front runners of INT don't catch up to EXP in exchange for the INT back markers getting mixed with EXP front runners is a horrible trade off. It is an excellent learning oppourtunity for the front INTs to gain a little bit more experience with riders closer to their speed. I am a perfect example of a guy that can smash a fast lap, but I lack the racing experience, so I make mistakes. If I didn't blow the start of the 600 SBK race I, of course, may have a different opinion, but that also reinforces my point. I blew a start. I was not mixed up with experts and I think I could have been more of a liability when mixed with experts that have 100s more race starts than me. Although, on the other hand, I would have been further ahead of some slower guys, and thus wouldn't have to fight back through and get pushed off the track again. I guess I may change my story when I start at the front rows instead of being gridded last. lol
 
I agree with Brian and Todd. I think minor tweaks are in order before anything major. I'd like to see a review of the procedure from last season on the starts. I believe it was the Int's were started once the last exp was in or clear of turn 5. If we went back to this I think it would solve a lot of issues. that's my 11 cents :)

I agree with a lot of the comments and a slight adjustment in the delay will do little to impact experts passing lappers imo. I think an expert passing a slower rider is safer then a fast intermediate who hasn't the experience of say Ian and Justin and the rest of the front expert class when making safe sound passes on us slower experts! :) I'm not knocking the fast intermediates, I like getting the chance to race and improve my laptimes following better riders! I don't like impacting the outcome of their races and if the delay helps sort the front out a bit rather than having a 4 wide battle arrive at the back of the expert field I cant see the problem. It certainly shouldn't impact race schedule :)
 

teejay

Member
I agree with a lot of the comments and a slight adjustment in the delay will do little to impact experts passing lappers imo. I think an expert passing a slower rider is safer then a fast intermediate who hasn't the experience of say Ian and Justin and the rest of the front expert class when making safe sound passes on us slower experts! :) I'm not knocking the fast intermediates, I like getting the chance to race and improve my laptimes following better riders! I don't like impacting the outcome of their races and if the delay helps sort the front out a bit rather than having a 4 wide battle arrive at the back of the expert field I cant see the problem. It certainly shouldn't impact race schedule :)

I agree, If safety is a concern I would say the executives would need to decide whether it is safer for experts to be passing slower riders 7 laps in with open space, or have intermediate riders passing experts 2 laps in.

For reference Me, Shane, Lee were bike to bike approaching the first experts after only 1 lap. And that's not including riders like Boddy, Corey, Bayne, Ryan, who were not in the mix that race.
 

Goatse

Active Member
I think the black numbers getting passed by intermediates just need to pull their slacks up and make sure it doesn't continue to happen. That will fix the entire issue right there.
 

fast316

EMRA Executive Member
I would like to add my experience from this past weekend. Making my way through lapped traffic during the 600 superbike race was not fun and cost me a chance at a podium. Myself and Mike Yurko made good clean passes on all the lapped traffic. However, the traffic we came up on made silly moves in front of us. I feel being slightly behind Mike when we passed traffic put me in an even more difficult spot, the lapped traffic would stand their bikes up or take different lines, rather than riding predictably and/or holding their lines. From video I have seen this problem was not encountered by intermediate riders passing experts. The only danger to a passing intermediate rider was the danger they put themselves into. The passes they made on experts were the same desperate passes they made earlier in the race on other intermediates.

I feel it is much more risky to have a front running expert pass a slow intermediate rider than it is to have a fast intermediate pass a slower expert. My reason for this is because the speed differential is greater and the experience differential is greater. There is and always will be more experts passing intermediates than intermediates passing experts, so I also feel the needs/wants of the majority should also be weighed into the discussion.

I would much rather see the introduction of a COURTESY blue flag to INFORM slower riders of approaching faster riders. This change would help the current problem for both fast expert and intermediate riders (rather than as they say rob peter to pay paul) and have the least impact on class structure, gridding, scheduling, championships, etc.
 

Goatse

Active Member
I would much rather see the introduction of a COURTESY blue flag to INFORM slower riders of approaching faster riders. This change would help the current problem for both fast expert and intermediate riders (rather than as they say rob peter to pay paul) and have the least impact on class structure, gridding, scheduling, championships, etc.


The blue flag worries me almost more though. Our track is still pretty small and tight. So there aren't many straights to just easily let the faster guys by. The guys getting lapped are typically the newer and inexperienced guys, so telling them to move out of the way would make them even more unpredictable and nervous IMO.
 
I don't race anymore but I want to chime into this hot topic:

I 100% agree with Jon that there should be a blue flag and slower riders should be more aware and purposely get out of the way when faster traffic comes up (whether it is taking a wider line or just outright slowing down). Doesn't matter if you are racing for position...if the leaders come up and you can not race the pace then you should be moving to one side and letting the leaders pass.

In all forms of motor REAL racing (motocross, F1, Motogp etc...) this blue flag rule applies and you must move out of the way or get penalized. I believe that this blue flag for slower riders is just another side of racing that racers must be aware of.

Too many times personally and from watching, I've seen some of the leaders have races ruined because they were held up by slower riders. I think having the introduction of a blue flag like many other professional organizations and having rules about moving out of the way is more in line with what professional racing is like.

I understand that people say "it is the responsibility of the rider behind" but I do not agree with that as I think it is a shared responsibility of the rider in front to also be aware of his/her surrounding and move aside to faster moving traffic
 

fast316

EMRA Executive Member
The blue flag worries me almost more though. Our track is still pretty small and tight. So there aren't many straights to just easily let the faster guys by. The guys getting lapped are typically the newer and inexperienced guys, so telling them to move out of the way would make them even more unpredictable and nervous IMO.

The point of the blue is not to 'let' a rider by. It is a COURTESY flag to INFORM the slower rider. Like all courtesy flags it is simply race control communicating to the riders, half way, last lap, about to be passed.
 

Goatse

Active Member
The point of the blue is not to 'let' a rider by. It is a COURTESY flag to INFORM the slower rider. Like all courtesy flags it is simply race control communicating to the riders, half way, last lap, about to be passed.

In theory yes. In application for a new rider, I do not think so. New racers see that blue flag waving, and their on track manners/actions will more than likely change. These aren't experts coming up on other experts. These are the fastest, (typically) most experienced racers, coming up on the slowest (typically) less experienced racers. The stress levels in that newer racer will definitely be elevated as to not be in the way or interfere with the experts flying up on them.
 

macbayne

Active Member
Nobody is putting you in the position 'to' be pushed off the track but yourself. ;)

For the most part, Dana, I completely agree. The details of this incident, however, will only be discussed privately with a rider rep at the next round. Again, this comes down to experience and predictability of the riders on the track.
 
I think the black numbers getting passed by intermediates just need to pull their slacks up and make sure it doesn't continue to happen. That will fix the entire issue right there.

I agree 100%... :) can I just say its my stock motor holding me back ha ha
 

majikx

Active Member
why not do 2 races on Sat. Perhaps Novice race 1 and maybe one of the veteran races. That would free up some time on Sundays. This is what we had to do with the CMRA back in the day and in Masters of the Mountain down in Utah this is pretty common place.

Just my 2 cents.
 

scaryfast

Member
I remember back in my intermediate days at strato when I was fast-ish, me and bohdi would catch up to lap traffic very quick. This sometimes won me a race or won him a race, but our passes were always safe. I found alot of my experience came from this situation and to be honest, it was the best part of the race. If your not passing people what fun is that. In the end everyone just has to keep the oxygen flowing in their lid and use your best judgment on safe passing. Everyone on track is there to have fun with their "hobby" and go home at the end of the day with a smile and not a messed bike (KYLE BUCKLEY). LOL. Sorry Kyle, had to throw it in there.
Lets pack these grids and get some close racing going
 

WRrider

Member
I learned to race in a different province. it was a well established track and an annual stop for the CSBK Championships. I was taught to hold my line; that it was the responsibility of the faster rider to pass safely. I was in no position then nor am I now to make decisions about changing lines to accommodate faster riders. It's not safe. (A blue flag should be a reminder to hold your line and a warning to not be alarmed when someone blows by.)

If someone loses a race because they couldn't get around a slower rider-that's racing. It happened to me just last round. I probably could have pushed it and gotten by but sometimes it's not worth the personal risk or, more importantly, the risk to a another rider.

Let's keep things in perspective-99 percent of us will never be more than club racers. The more talented riders always find a way around.
 
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