2017 rule change discussion

DEFBOY35

Well-Known Member
Alright folks. Let's get the ball rolling early on any proposed changes to the rules for the 2017 season. Any ideas that you think may possibly make the club better etc.
let's keep it respectful and on point.
This way we will have a jump start on things as the Agm nears in December where we can vote on any proposed changes.
 

S-african

Member
Looking at entries: Exp Middleweight - could we consider scrapping this class? Does that mean we can still have an Intermediate class?

Int Middle weight - max entries 6 (June rd) else usually 3-5 / Rd.
Lightweight open - Avg 5 entries /Rd
Currently Middleweight (Exp/Int) are joined with Lightweight open

Could we join them with other racers? And open up a slot on schedule

Let Lightweight open join the Formula 112 grid (running similar times to back of grid anyway)
Let Middle weight join Sportsmans / Lightweight SBK
 

S-african

Member
For staggered starts (specifically 600 supersport/ Open sportbike- Delaying second group by 10 seconds just increase the chance of them being caught by faster guys. Could we considering leaving 2 rows open, and having everyone start at the same lights. Fast Intermediate racers are going to catch the slower Experts anyway, and this gives them a chance to maybe follow and learn from the quicker experts. (this was a Calgary format - I remember it worked well when I was in Intermediate)
 
For staggered starts (specifically 600 supersport/ Open sportbike- Delaying second group by 10 seconds just increase the chance of them being caught by faster guys. Could we considering leaving 2 rows open, and having everyone start at the same lights. Fast Intermediate racers are going to catch the slower Experts anyway, and this gives them a chance to maybe follow and learn from the quicker experts. (this was a Calgary format - I remember it worked well when I was in Intermediate)

That sounds like a horrible idea as some intermediate riders in the front row get great starts and can make up those " 2 rows" in no time and then they get all pilled up in the first corner i really enjoy to pause between both classes on the start line. If we can catch up after a few laps thats great but lets not do it on the first lap or first corner
 

S-african

Member
Fine, I'm happy giving them 3 rows. But if an Intermediate gets that good a start (2 rows by cnr 5), maybe they should be bumped up to Expert and teach me something. I'm one of the worst 600 starters (along with Ryan - sorry). Any Intermediate that is racing that well, should be capable of mixing it up with experts and learning from the experts. The bigger concern is the faster Experts catching the slower Intermediate racers, with a vast speed differential, that is a larger safety concern in my opinion.

Please note, these are just my opinions, trying to stimulate conversation, and see if there is anything we can do to improve racing as well as our club commitments and need to finish promptly without constantly sacrificing laps to later races.


That sounds like a horrible idea as some intermediate riders in the front row get great starts and can make up those " 2 rows" in no time and then they get all pilled up in the first corner i really enjoy to pause between both classes on the start line. If we can catch up after a few laps thats great but lets not do it on the first lap or first corner
 

M87

Active Member
Mixing intermediates with experts is not a recipe for instant disaster, the top intermediates have skills that are at the same level as some of the experts but the first turn has more potential for a serious incident than any other point in the race. Staggering the starts with a time interval significantly reduces that risk IMHO
 
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fast316

EMRA Executive Member
We do need to address the current schedule. But this is not going to be easy, it has been tweaked and fine tuned over year and years. There's a few things we all need to consider when it comes to making changes to the schedule, a few points to remember are:

-Ideally Everyone should get two races for their bike, one in the morning, one after lunch.

-Ideally a racer shouldn't have back to back races.

-Safety and closing speeds are something to consider when mixing grids. Like grids with expert and intermediate, or faster and slower bikes.

-Time is money, especially at Castrol. A grid with 5 bikes taking up a 20 minute time slot just doesn't pay the bills compared to a grid with 25 bikes that takes 15 minute time slot.

There is no easy answer to this. The current schedule we have just doesn't work. We do need to make some cuts, that being said we don't want to make too many. If you consider round 6 as our best round as far as staying on schedule goes we finished roughly a half hour early. Which isn't too bad. Round 4 was probably our worst round, red flag stoppage in all but 3 races that day, we cut a total of 14 laps from races and finished a half hour late. Finishing late we got away with, but in the future we may not be so lucky. Somewhere in the middle is probably best.
Finding a way to change the schedule is tough. Having to go look up race results and grid numbers, then cross reference that with technical rules, which bikes can run in which class, then look up what bikes were actually on the grids etc.
 

fast316

EMRA Executive Member
I'd like to see some sort 'EMRA Superpole' qualifying format, I know it has been mentioned before, I can't find the thread atm, but I think it's a cool idea.
 

SetUpSixRR

EMRA Executive Member
I'd like to see some sort 'EMRA Superpole' qualifying format, I know it has been mentioned before, I can't find the thread atm, but I think it's a cool idea.


Cool idea maybe, but like you said... Time is money and I feel like a Superpole qualifying session will be a waste of time. It likely won't change any positions in the top few guys, it just takes time.





I'd like to propose combining Intermediate & Expert middleweight twins to just Middleweight Twins. Open to either race license, combining the classes will boost the rider numbers and may make them eligible for trophies for the first time in years. (5 riders minimum for 50%+ of the race rounds needed to be eligible).

I'd also like to propose that Novice riders can enter Formula 112. They often get their races cut short and they're paying their race fees like everyone else so I always feel bad when we shorten an already short novice race more than one lap. The price would be $30 if they entered the other two novice races as well.
 

blam

Administrator
I'd also like to propose that Novice riders can enter Formula 112. They often get their races cut short and they're paying their race fees like everyone else so I always feel bad when we shorten an already short novice race more than one lap. The price would be $30 if they entered the other two novice races as well.

I like this idea as well. there were a couple fast novices this year running away from the rest of them.

bear in mind, this means a novice racer on a 300 twin (novices are eligible for lightweight twin if im not mistaken?) can potentially promote to intermediate in 1 weekend. not sure if that makes a difference to you guys or not.
 

DEFBOY35

Well-Known Member
Personally I'd like to see us move to a schedule closer to the type that Utahsba runs. Instead of running a full day of practice on the Saturday run 3 practice sessions and then run half the classes. Then Sunday run the practice sessions do a super pole type qualifying and then run the last half of the classes.
It would take a little figuring out to get it the logistics right as far as which class goes where. The other benefit is that they have built in "flex" time which will hopefully help keep us on schedule.

As much as I don't want to take away classes from people. I think the fact as mentioned that having a grid of 5 or less bikes on track for certain time slots is not in our best interest.
I'd also like to see at least the 600sbk race run with combined grid to make the grids larger and more exciting for the people in the stands. Whether it be the 10 second gap or 2 to 3 rows.
Or perhaps it's a mixed grid. To qualify you must be within a certain percentage of pole position to enter. That would buy 30-40 minutes of schedule right there by putting those two grids back together. 600sbk &sbk
 

Fireman

Well-Known Member
For the sake of time, We could consider following a licensing structure that is similar to most every other club in both the USA and Canada. We would have a Novice and a Expert group (we used to call it Intermediate and Expert)

This would require a change of rules, and a reorganization of rider classification.

Now with that said, I petitioned to have a novice class and I like the built in safety factor of a 2 race weekend buffer, however we are in a new era of EMRA racing. And I believe like many others that things need to change to improve on our old system.

I also like the idea of Superpole. And here is how I would suggest the layout.

-Superpole is to be used for the last 15 minute session of practice on Saturday (during regular rounds)

- The top 10 riders, determined by the days earlier times can choose to ride during this session

- The times from this session and previous session throughout the day (whichever is faster) will determine grid position for qualified classes

- No special Q tires to be allowed (to keep costs down)


This would essentially create a top 10 shootout that allows riders to qualify with minimal traffic and rewards them for being in the top 10


Also, I would like to see EMRA cheerleaders. I have some ideas for the outfits...
 

Dave86

Active Member
For the sake of time, We could consider following a licensing structure that is similar to most every other club in both the USA and Canada. We would have a Novice and a Expert group (we used to call it Intermediate and Expert)

This would require a change of rules, and a reorganization of rider classification.

Now with that said, I petitioned to have a novice class and I like the built in safety factor of a 2 race weekend buffer, however we are in a new era of EMRA racing. And I believe like many others that things need to change to improve on our old system.

I'm not against the idea, but I have concerns about it numbers wise. Even if we separated Expert and Intermediate grids, for example round 1 when we had our rider turnout, there were 27 Novices on the grid, and 20 Intermediates. Combining Novice and Intermediates would be too big a grid at that point IMO.

The last time I saw a combined grid that big was WCC in Calgary, and resulted in 3 red flag restarts and the race just being abandoned at that point.

I like the idea of the Superpole for the top 10. If it's a single session at the end of the day, it's not really taking track time away from anybody as most in the top 10 will likely be in practice group 4 anyway.
 

Dave86

Active Member
How would people feel about registration cut off at the end of Saturday instead of Sunday after riders meeting? We'd still allow cancellations Sunday morning, but this would allow us to post grids (including qualifying races) at the end of the day Saturday and sort out any issues then, instead of scrambling to get it done during practice and before / during the first races.
 

SetUpSixRR

EMRA Executive Member
How would people feel about registration cut off at the end of Saturday instead of Sunday after riders meeting? We'd still allow cancellations Sunday morning, but this would allow us to post grids (including qualifying races) at the end of the day Saturday and sort out any issues then, instead of scrambling to get it done during practice and before / during the first races.


I'm against this idea because weather changes, tires are changed, riders can't always make Saturday practice or can't make every session etc.
Also in my case, I'm typically helping out during the first session or two and then I have an afternoon to qualify on two bikes.

I'd like to see how long of a process it is to print out grid sheets. From the end of session 4 Sunday practice to Fast 25 (the first race with qualifying) is over an hour. Is there something we can do to improve that instead of taking away race day qualifying?
 

Dave86

Active Member
I'm against this idea because weather changes, tires are changed, riders can't always make Saturday practice or can't make every session etc.
Also in my case, I'm typically helping out during the first session or two and then I have an afternoon to qualify on two bikes.

I'd like to see how long of a process it is to print out grid sheets. From the end of session 4 Sunday practice to Fast 25 (the first race with qualifying) is over an hour. Is there something we can do to improve that instead of taking away race day qualifying?

We're talking about adding a Superpole session at the end of the day Saturday, if we allow qualifying Sunday morning at that point, it makes Superpole pretty much meaningless.

It's not just printing out grids, and it's not just the qualifying races. In total, it's 6 copies each of 20 races after going through them all and making any corrections, posting them up, running out copies to gate, Stu, tower and pre-grid, then once everybody has seen them, making any corrections and running out new copies.

It's a time consuming process even if everything works perfectly, and if there are any problems with the registration system it leaves basically no time to fix any issues.

If I could post them Saturday at the end of the day, it would leave time to sort out any issues then or in the morning, instead of scrambling to get it done while practice and races are already running.
 

S-african

Member
I like a lot of those ideas...

1) Combining 600SBK Inter and Expert or Open Superbike Inter and Expert - based on times, makes for a larger grid, and more opportunity for racing against someone your own speed. Do mixed grids - in other words one large grid (Intermediate could be on pole!). Posting a time limit of 110% (or using our (112% we already use) as a cut off. Keep scoring separate if we continue with Intermed and expert groups.

2) Doing some races on a Saturday just makes sense. We have created 2 races for each class, and given them subtle name changes, but why not just have a 600 class and an open class (no-one actually has different bikes based on the rules for 600SS and Sportbike). (Same goes for Lightweight) Do one race on the Saturday - call it a sprint race - 8 laps, and on Sunday do main feature race (12 for 600 and 14 for Superbike). this also gets us more in line with Nationals, should they come, that our racers are best prepared for longer races. I realize this takes away some championships and less trophies at the end of the year - but increases the value of each of those trophies. Even just 2 or 3 or 4 races on Saturday saves huge time on Sunday, and gives a lot of flexibility to Sundays schedule.
Alternative is to do the Saturday race grid on points, and use best times on Saturday practice AND race times on Saturday for grid position on Sunday. Helping some of the people who feel hard done by if the can only make 1 or 2 practice sessions. Not ideal, but a compromise of sorts.


Personally I'd like to see us move to a schedule closer to the type that Utahsba runs. Instead of running a full day of practice on the Saturday run 3 practice sessions and then run half the classes. Then Sunday run the practice sessions do a super pole type qualifying and then run the last half of the classes.
It would take a little figuring out to get it the logistics right as far as which class goes where. The other benefit is that they have built in "flex" time which will hopefully help keep us on schedule.

As much as I don't want to take away classes from people. I think the fact as mentioned that having a grid of 5 or less bikes on track for certain time slots is not in our best interest.
I'd also like to see at least the 600sbk race run with combined grid to make the grids larger and more exciting for the people in the stands. Whether it be the 10 second gap or 2 to 3 rows.
Or perhaps it's a mixed grid. To qualify you must be within a certain percentage of pole position to enter. That would buy 30-40 minutes of schedule right there by putting those two grids back together. 600sbk &sbk
 
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S-african

Member
Dave (Or any moderator) - can we start a poll and ask how many people only come for Sunday, and how many come for Saturday/Sunday? At least try get some gauge on numbers.
 
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Dave86

Active Member
Dave (Or any moderator) - can we start a poll and ask how many people only come for Sunday, and how many come for Saturday/Sunday?

I'll run a poll but I was running registration all year and can tell you there were never more than a few people that came to register on Sunday only, the other people in registration were just adding or cancelling races from their existing registration.

As long as people pre-register, they could still register for Sunday only, the only issue I see would be qualifying.. they wouldn't be able to set a time and would have to start from the back of the grid for any qualifying races. Points races wouldn't be an issue.
 

blam

Administrator
I'd like to see how long of a process it is to print out grid sheets. From the end of session 4 Sunday practice to Fast 25 (the first race with qualifying) is over an hour. Is there something we can do to improve that instead of taking away race day qualifying?

I think this may boil down to more of a lack of helpers? i'd be surprised if we cant find a way to streamline this a bit and save time.

I'd also like to keep the race day qualifying (despite having only run half or so of them this year) simply because I personally find it helpful to bang out some laps before my first race to get a warmed up.

I imagine the only reason people would miss saturday is due to other commitments.
 
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