Race Tire Questions

Discussion in 'Technical Forum' started by DMesher, Dec 2, 2012.

  1. DMesher

    DMesher Active Member

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    Darel Mesher
    I am at a point where I will have to replace the worn DOT's on my S1KRR as I convert it to pure race bike this winter. I am looking for guidance based on the wisdom and depth of experience of the guys/gals in the EMRA. Sorry for the naivete of the questions...I checked the forums but couldn't find the info in earlier discussions (if I missed a discussion please let me know).

    I assume the correct choice would be soft compound race slicks (recognizing that they will wear sooner but stick better). If slicks are the way to go, I would certainly appreciate any recommendations based on personal experiences.

    I would like to purchase from one of our home grown EMRA suppliers (rather than somewhere off the inet) as long as the price difference isn't HUGE. What quantity must be purchased in order to get tire manufacturers to provide quantity discounts? Does the EMRA ever do a group buy?

    Finally, if you are going race for a season, does the typical racer have two sets of rims with dry/wet tires mounted on each or do tires get changed off the rims as the clouds roll in...(seems impractical to me..)

    Thanks!

    Darel
     
  2. madmax

    madmax Member

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    talk to scott at empire tires (spooner) he's the premier tire guy at strato and will be able to answer all your questions.
     
  3. yak

    yak Well-Known Member

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    Darel

    This is a huge subject.

    The two biggest questions are how fast are you going and how much do you want to spend?

    Depending on pace, there are some tires that are much more economical to run then the "softest slicks". These tires may not require tire warmers and they tend to last a lot longer, all while giving good traction. One such tire is the Pirelli red stripe. I've been led to believe that down to 1:03 ish these tires deliver. There are other options out there too. The Dunlop front slicks last forever and the hard rears are supposed to be good, but these require tire warmers for optimal performance. I expect that Dave S. can share some Michelin wisdom. At the beginning stages good take offs can also do the job. Also you should consider one of the manufacturers DOT track day tires (see below).

    The 2 sets of rims makes life a lot simpler if you want to cover the weather bases. It seems rare at Stratotech to get rain for a full day so wheel changes are common. If you have to swap tires on the rims there often isn't enough time. Another option, if pace permits, is to select a DOT track tire. Then you always have the right tire mounted. That being said nothing touches a full wet tire on a soaked track, but they won't last ten laps on a drying track.

    As you are starting out I wouldn't recommend bulk buying tires. As you pick up pace your needs will change and not all tires feel the same so rider preference and bike setup need to be taken into account. In other words, you may like to sample a few options before spending big dollars.

    Regards,

    Todd
     
  4. Fireman

    Fireman Well-Known Member

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    Todd very much covered a bulk of the subject. My first question is this. Are you going to be racing, or doing trackdays? What is your ideal budget for tires? Are you willing to purchase tire warmers and a generator?


    Pirelli for example offers tires for all of the variables.

    If you are looking for a trackday only tire that does not heat cycle nor does it require warmerrs (and gen) - look to the Superbike pro slick (red stripe)

    In that same category you will find the Dragon superbike pro (DOT tire)

    Then if you are looking to spend money on warmers. You can look towards the Supercorsa DOT tire of the Superbike slicks. As with each of the manufacturers , you will find that these require heat to work well and wear the fastest of the 2 options. They however offer unparalleled grip and confidence.


    The key to this is to be realistic about your plans. Buying the Superbike slick to do trackdays is a waste of your money. Especially as there are now options available for every aspect of our sport.


    If you have any other questions, feel free to contact myself at justin@empiretyres.ca or Scott Paras at scott@empiretyres.ca

    We would be happy to answer any questions you might have
     
  5. DMesher

    DMesher Active Member

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    Darel Mesher
    Thanks Guys,

    I realized this was a complicated question when I posed it and it is definitely a case of having some anecdotal gut feel for the subject from reading lots on the web....but not knowing what I don't know. But I joined a club with lots of experts! If I wasn't away on business now I would have come to the AGM for pizza and tire discussions...

    I plan on racing, and thought that warmers and a generator would be a requirement...and knew that they would provide access to a different class of tires. I'm not sure how fast I will go but I was hoping to not make tires the limiting factor. I posted a few 1:09 laps during track days as very much a novice just trying to ride smooth and find the line (any line..lol), and not really 'racing'.

    I will follow up with some personal messages to Justin and Scott to get some recommendations. I've always thought that there are probably more than a few of us novices (and perhaps intermediate racers) that look for this type of insight to the very basic questions so these discussions are much appreciated.

    Certainly by me!

    Darel






     
  6. DEFBOY35

    DEFBOY35 Well-Known Member

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    hey Darel, will be good to have you out racing next season!

    Just wanted to add that the entire empyre crew has been great with support, and offering that extra bit of tire knowledge when needed.

    I ran through the supercorsas this year as well as the superbikes. if your on top of your pressures and seeing how its effecting the tires when you come in, im sure that will go a long way to getting that extra bit of life out of them as well.

    also to add in, that we ran a set of the red stripes on my bike for the endurance race, i pushed my usual race pace on them and they felt really good, and at the end of the race they still look like i can get a couple track days out of yet.
     
  7. YZF1000jon

    YZF1000jon Well-Known Member

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    Depending on race times, the red stripes are good for a season and an endurance race (less one rain round), and a number of track days, all on one set with a flip halfway through. Pirellis tend to be very round and slower/steadier steering, Michelin tend to be more pointy and quicker steering. That is all a matter of personal preference, but some riding styles agree with one profile more than the other. Not sure where the Dunlops fall in regards to the profile but they hold the outright lap record at this point.
     
  8. DMesher

    DMesher Active Member

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  9. yak

    yak Well-Known Member

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    Darel

    I haven't read the link but I believe it is fair to say that Startotech places relatively unique stresses on tires.

    We often end up with lower track temperatures and the asphalt is mechanically very grippy. This can cause some unexpected problems with tires that work really well else where.

    Regards,

    Todd
     
  10. Racin Jason

    Racin Jason Member

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    I see this is an old post but thought I would throw in my two cents any way.
    I was a big fan of the red stripes. Me and Knappy did an endurance race on a set in 2011 and did about 200 laps on them with both of us averaging lap times in the 1:01 range. I kept them on the bike for the beginning of the the 2012 season with the intention of knocking the winter rust off and then changing them out.
    After a couple of track days and getting my spring testing times back in the minute flat range there was still lots of tread left so I kept them on the bike. It became a challenge to see just how long they would last. I lost count after about 300 laps. They maintained pretty good grip until they got down to the last 20% of tread. Having said that there was just a smidge less grip than the other Pirelli slicks but as many have already said though if you are realistic about your skill level they may be the tire for you. They are good up until the 1:01-1:02 range and the durability at that pace is impressive.
     
  11. oldskool

    oldskool Active Member

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    Judging the pace a tire is capable of by lap times is kinda tough, while someone may run a 1:04, it is quite possible that they are cornering at a 59 sec pace (or possibly bad lean angle) and being a super bitch braking in and exiting. That edge grip will not be there for them even though they're running that slower pace. Just a thought. The point of not needing more until you're faster seems sound though......
     
  12. sv-racing-parts

    sv-racing-parts Well-Known Member

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    :) Ian Wall and Pete DeGraff also did a blistering pace Endurance race a couple of years ago on Dunlop Tires and brought home the big prize on that one with over 200 laps.

    Pete then took the GSXR to California and ran those same Dunlop Tires for a number of track days and a race or two; Then he brought the bike up to Miller the following spring and put in some track time.

    Then Pete brought the bike back to Stratotech and raced it in the season opener here.

    Here's the rub, Pete then took off those tires and gave them to a local Stratotech rider who wanted to try Dunlop Tires who then used the tires for a few more weekends before they finally went to the that's enough pile,

    Every time I think of Pete and Ian and those Dunlop Tires I smile,

    Enjoy the ride, and best regards,
    Blair
     
  13. Fireman

    Fireman Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that Pete did a endurance race, a couple track days, 2 races in California, a race in miller, a trackday in strat and then gave the tires to another rider. All on the same tires. You must be kidding me Blair.


    Maybe some of our local Dunlop riders can speak up to this type of durability. I have ran the dunlops and spoke with a lot of riders who have no where near this durability even on 110hp 600s. Never mind 190 hp superbikes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  14. sv-racing-parts

    sv-racing-parts Well-Known Member

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    :) Just relating what Pete said, How ever many track days or whether it was the 1 or the 2 races, it is still incredible how much he got out of those tires,

    Jason's 300 laps on the Red Stripe or Pete on the Dunlop are both great examples of what can be gotten out of a set of tires,

    It was Jason's comment of 300 laps that made me think of Pete smiling and saying "I am not sure how laps are on the front now but it has to be over 300 so I might as well change them, they gotta wear out sometime",

    Anyone who remembers Pete knows that he was not one for changing tires early or for anything else that was not really required,

    There is a lot of good tires and the rider needs to use what works for them,

    Pete or Jason's ability to get 300ish laps from a tire are by no means a suggestion that it is either common or something most lesser skilled riders could pull off,

    Pete's bike at that time was not a 190HP SuperBike, it was the first GSXR 1000 not the Yoshimura bikes that he purchased later,

    Enjoy the ride, and best regards,
    Blair
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  15. Fireman

    Fireman Well-Known Member

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    The 2 tires you are comparing are very very different in nature. One is a race slick (Dunlop), the other is a trackday tire. I have also ran the Dunlop slicks for the endurance race. Komo and I did it twice I believe. Trust me, you might be able to run a front longer. But that rear is to the cords at 200 laps. On a 600 it may be a touch better like the redline guys showed this year.

    The guys running the dunlops were getting 20- 25 laps more use out of the hard compound 195 slick than the other brands. At $540.00 a set I guess I would hope to see that. But to suggest racing on a 250 lap or 300 lap tire is just silly.

    Once again. Any of our current Dunlop riders, if you would like to chime in. Please do. The best advertising for Michelin and Pirelli are the Dunlop riders :)
     
  16. sv-racing-parts

    sv-racing-parts Well-Known Member

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    :) Hi good brother Justin, none of my comments are about what is better and definitely not any form of comparison at all other than two fun stories if anything at all,

    I was just relating a great story because of its uniqueness in response to a great story from Jason.

    All the tires are awesome and I am not here to persuade anyone that one or the other is better.

    Enjoy the ride, and best regards,
    Blair
     
  17. Fireman

    Fireman Well-Known Member

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    I totally understand my friend. I just wanted to make sure that info that people are looking at in this "tire info" thread is accurate. I don't want people thinking that the superbike pro slick is a full race tire. It is a endurance tire. I also don't think that you want people thinking they will be able to do 200 laps in a endurance race, 2 races in California, a race in Utah, a couple more trackdays in Edmonton, and then be able to sell the tires as takeoffs to someone else on the Dunlop slicks. Obviously that is impossible.

    Over the years I have had the opportunity to run a lot of different tires, brands, tracks. And in that time I have spent a lot of money trying a lot of different combinations, compounds, pressures, and suspension settings.

    And I have never seen or heard of wear like what you suggest. Just trying to keep the information plausible.
     
  18. sv-racing-parts

    sv-racing-parts Well-Known Member

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    :) Hi Justin, Let's just leave it at very few people would even go beyond the endurance race and run any of the tires beyond the 200 laps of the endurance race other than maybe a following track day or so,

    Whatever else the extraordinary riders like Pete and Jason squeezed from their respective tires was above and beyond the expectations that anyone should have for tires,

    At the end of the day the last thing between you and the tarmac is your tires so great stories aside everyone needs to be responsible when it comes to squeezing those final laps from any tire,

    Sometimes tires and stories about them can be a little like a who's right political discussion,

    Have fun and run what you like everyone,

    See you soon, I will be in Edmonton on Thursday this week for anyone expecting Santa and some presents in the form of parts,

    Enjoy the ride, and very best regards,
    Blair
     
  19. Fireman

    Fireman Well-Known Member

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    Ha ha ha. True Blair. Everyone has their opinion on tires and bike brands. Luckily however, we get to race soon enough. And prove who has the fast stuff.

    See you soon Blair

    Justin
     
  20. sv-racing-parts

    sv-racing-parts Well-Known Member

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    :) So True Justin, and I think that this is going to be a super race season in a lot of different aspects for the club,

    Twins looks to be shaping up for a great battle on the Formula Thunder Front,

    Middleweight Twins in the SV Racing Parts Cup Series should be awesome,

    and then there is that SuperBike Class with you, Jason, and a supporting cast of terrific riders set to bring down the roof with superb racing in this 2013 Seasons Battle for the Number One Plate,

    I am pumped and looking forward to a really fun year for everyone,

    Let me just close this by saying that I have been to a lot of tracks in many areas and experienced quite a number of clubs and the way that people interact with each other at these tracks and clubs.

    Our little group and track has the best ambiance, the best sense of mutual respect, and the most willing to work with and help each other positive attitude that I have seen anywhere. That is the reason I drive 1400km each direction for every single EMRA Race Event, and so many other times during the year to help out wherever I can,

    Have fun everyone,
    Blair
     

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