Which Tire Warmers?

Discussion in 'Technical Forum' started by Ducbert, Mar 15, 2010.

  1. Ducbert

    Ducbert Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    7
    Real Name:
    Norbert aka "Jaju"
    Single Temp warmers good enough or are the more expensive digital multi temp ones required?
     
  2. racer51

    racer51 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Messages:
    313
    Likes Received:
    1
    Real Name:
    Rick Newcombe "Duke Nukem"
    single word answer

    Ye$ :D It's all about the benjamins...how many you got to spare?
     
  3. John Bickle

    John Bickle Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2010
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    4
    I can probably help answer that,
    If you are setting hot tire pressures then the programmable model is going to help you.
    But understand you need to take the hot tire pressure and temperature as soon as you come off the track.So you need a good probe pyrometer and a good tire gauge with fine increments.
    Plus you need help to do this as you ,the rider won't be able to.
    If you just set cold tire pressures as the mfg'er specs then the single temp is fine. All tires specs will run around the 78 Celsius. If you are getting wear that is abnormal it isn't usually the warmer but the pressure, unless the warmer isn't hot enough. So check with your vendor as to what you should do.
    With the weather we get here in Canada, you traditionally need the warmer settings anyway.
    For example at Shannonville with Szokes bike we lost 11 C between the tent and pit lane. It was a 35 C day but a north breeze.
    So in most cases buy a warmer with good insulation as it is a must up here [and even more important in your guys neck of the woods]. Most people only need the standard model. The factory teams this year we deal with are reverting back to the standard models. They are less finicky and have a longer life.[and cheaper]
    That being said if you do need the programmable,,,, they can't be made cheap. A standard model is more consistant, regardless of make. The programmables are very hard to design with readings that are relavant.
    I would recommend getting the standard design of what ever make.Then looking into some form of cover to help the warmer in colder weather.That will help most more then the digital tools.
    BUt if you think you need the digital I'd certainly have a set for you!;)
    Basically if you use the adjustability it's great,, if you don't you just wasted money on a tool that sits in your drawer.
    I don't want to turn this into an info-mercial so if anybody has questions I'll try to pop back here and answer them as best I can or contact me at
    bickleracing@sympatico.ca

    Thanks, John
     
  4. JDS

    JDS Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    0
    ^ Thanx for that info.
     
  5. Ducbert

    Ducbert Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    7
    Real Name:
    Norbert aka "Jaju"
    Wow, thank you very much!! :D
     
  6. oldskool

    oldskool Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2009
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    0
  7. racer51

    racer51 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Messages:
    313
    Likes Received:
    1
    Real Name:
    Rick Newcombe "Duke Nukem"
    Expert reply

    Coolio...just the thought that a "pro" like John Bickle is reading our forum is encouraging.

    Welcome John! Please share any tire knowledge you have time for.

    What's your view on nitrogen vs. air?
     
  8. John Bickle

    John Bickle Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2010
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    4
    Well, assuming you completely purged the tire and had 100% Nitogen then you would only have to get the pressure right once!! But what if you get the wrong pressure? What if the track has no Nitrogen and all year you have been using it? Now what would you do.
    Personally, it's something that leads you to believe your life will get simplier. Well,, creates too much dependacy on someone else.
    Unless you install and purge your own tires with your own Nitrogen I wouldn't recommend it.
    You can make this sport as complex and as expensive as you want.
    I really can't see how Nitrogen will make most guys quicker. A good tire probe pyrometer,, good pressure gauge used as soon as you come off the track will teach you tons.
    Good warmers which heat soak the tires well, with a good pressure gauge and a good tire pyrometer is what will teach you more and should give you tools to adjust your set-up to go quicker. Nitrogen,, once it's inside the rim,,, doesn't tell you anything,, you still need to understand how to set up around it. And most guys quit on it half way or sooner through the year,,cause they didn't get quicker. So now they need to start again. But if you have these tools and have a good set-up and have documented how air reacts,, all relating to wear/grip on your tires. Then maybe it will help.
    But you really need to create the plateform for the benefits of Nitrogen. Don't get Nitrogen and then establish the program.
    MHO
    And I've been lurking here for some time now,,,,

    John
     
  9. MyTTwin

    MyTTwin Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2009
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    0
    Real Name:
    Scott
    Wow, great to see John Bickle on our forum...

    Ducbert, I would suggest the standard Bickle racing warmers available at Bickleracing.com I'll be enjoying mine this year :)
     
  10. YZF1000jon

    YZF1000jon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Messages:
    658
    Likes Received:
    2
    Real Name:
    Jon Watchuk
    I just rely on the extra grip I have on my seat when I use my old michelin H2 take-offs and don't own tire warmers at all. Sphincter muscles can be stronger than gravity, honest.
     
  11. John Bickle

    John Bickle Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2010
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    4
    What most people don't realize is how much tire you waste with out warmers.
    So here's what most do,, two laps nice and easy to warm the tire up and then hammer it! In a race they try to work the tire on the warm up lap.
    Well the fact is you need 45 minutes to heat soak a tire at 20 C ambient air temp. So assuming a lap is 1.5 minutes ? There is no way you can heat soak a tire in 3 minutes. So what happens is,, you do your 2 laps and the outside of the carcass is soft/warm. The inside is still very cold. So the soft rubbber starts to ripp from the hard carcass. Cold Tearing. The last few laps you get the tire heat soaked and the tire cleans up. You come in and the tire looks great. So all is good,,you think!
    Well you have unnecessarily wasted a lot of rubber. So that is how tire warmers will save you money. Plus,, there is no way you can even attempt suspension changes at the upper end of the scale if you are not on warmers. The tire today have such soft side walls they have to be hot to give you the proper feedback. Going back a few posts to setting hot tire pressures. The pressure dictates the rigidity/stiffness of the side wall.
    So your poor suspension guy could be chasing his tail.

    Now, cold days under 15 C. Out here in Ontario, Shannonville you will loose heat. So if you go out at 70 C you will have five lap and be down around 55 C. It will level off around 45-55 C depending the rider. Calabogie the temp is 10 C and it will maintain 60 C.
    So depending on your ashphalt,, if you have no warmers you start at 15 C ambient air. It is much harder for the rider with no warmers to get to 30-40 C with out warmers. So although 50-60 C is not optimal operating temp,,, it is way better and safer then 30-40 C at best.

    So warmers ,, although its another thing to add to the program,,,just make things work better and are safer. Not to mention increase the life of tires.


    John
     
  12. Planepower

    Planepower Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    299
    Likes Received:
    0
    Real Name:
    Heiko
    Well said!
    Tires lasting longer are the arguing factor as to why i use tire warmers, i am no where near at the level that John is describing - but at $400+/set of tires, that is the most expensive component to racing...take care of your tires and racing wont eat up your mortgage.
     
  13. Fireman

    Fireman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Messages:
    834
    Likes Received:
    15
    John, you touched on the fact that the soft rubber tears from the hard carcass on a tire that is not heat soaked. We have alot of problems at our track with exactly this. It is a slower speed track and VERY abrasive. Soft rear tires are destroyed and some medium cannot handle the task either.
    Would you speculate it is because the tire cools down even while riding and the soft compound then tears? Is there anything you would suggest to minimize or eliminate this issue?

    Just as background this happens with all the tire brands, while running the "proper" tire pressures and running at expert rider pace.
     
  14. John Bickle

    John Bickle Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2010
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    4
    Oh boy!
    The corners that really build heat or maintain heat are fast sweepers that you load the carcass, or are inputting steering for some time. Stratotech looks and from what I heard [I think that might be the one we're talking about] is a track that has short hard in type corners. And yes that could happen. If you don't maintain heat the the tire will cool and scrub off rubber.
    At the same time,, if you have great asphalt and hard out type corners. That's a tough combo.
    What I would do or recommend is some tests with the tire and see if the temperature is really falling off. On a normal day. So get a good tire probe style pyrometer. Do some laps and see what's going on inside the tire.
    I think,,speculate might be better,, you may need to play with air pressure.
    I do know last year at Mirabel,which is cement, the guys that actually got the wear out of the tires were running upwards of ten pounds more then the tire reps were suggesting. Cement is very abrasive and grippy, so by adding more pressure they reduced the contact patch. This reduced the grip and the tire didn't get as hot or abused.
    You guys may be in the same situation. Someone would have to do some test.But you really need the good pyrometer, not infra red.And a good tire pressure gauge with fine increments.
    If you are getting incredible grip it may be more then is necessary. I would think you should be able to find a pressure that would get you the grip and increase the life.Too much pressure and you will start spinning up which may lead to hi-sides.[Warning]
    I think it sounds like one of those tracks where heat is being generated but grip is so good it just shreds the tire. If the tire wasn't generating heat you would start falling or sliding.
    If that is not happening I think you need to go outside the box. Tire manufacturer's spec's are for perfect world scenarios,,,, Canada we're far from that,on a good day. We run what we can.
    Okay, let me ask ,"has anyone ever experimented with slightly raised pressures and did it work?"

    So what I would do,, good rider with discipline,, warmers on,, hot tire pressure. Five laps measure the temp and take the pressure.Five laps measure again. Add some air repeat. You have to start with hot tire pressures simply because coming off the track it will be hot.
    We need to find out if the track design is causing it to loose heat and if not then we need to possible reduce the grip with increased hot pressure.
    Now,,,,Please understand I'm not telling you to not listen to what the tire mfg'ers are saying to do. Document your findings then make calculated decisions as to what might help.
    And ,, I'll try not to turn this into an "info-mercial" but some warmers do not get you the heat you need. You need good insulation and or some auxiliary insulation to ensure you have heat all the way through.
    The one thing I've learned with warmers,,, is all things are not equal.So the farther up the lap time chart the more this becomes apparent.

    So good pyrometer, probe style,good pressure gauge, good heat in the tire,, test away.

    Hope this helps,,, if not sorry. What are your thoughts?
    Can someone ask me a short question
     
  15. Fireman

    Fireman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Messages:
    834
    Likes Received:
    15
    To answer your question John, yes Stratotech is home for most of us on the EMRA. Very grippy, tight 2nd gear corners with about a 1:00 lap time.

    -Now with the dunlops I was running about 7psi more than recommended with good wear. However I cannot use a soft compound ever without tearing.

    -The Older michelin PR4's would net me about 20-30 laps before their eminant death

    -Pirelli SC1's were about a 30 lap wonder as well

    All the while on warmers (the last few years digital warmers set to 85 deg). I have a very goor infared gun and it has a probe addition that I can use. Should I not use the IR because it only reads surface temp? Do you recommend a particular probe brand?

    I just came back from Thunderhill where I put 4 days on a set of Dunlop slicks. They look pretty amazing and are still carrying 30% of their tread left. If I could see a third of that wear here in edmonton I would be pretty happy!

    Lastly, I am in the market for a new set of warmers soon. Seeing as you are the man who makes the warmers, can I buy direct from you or do I need to go through one of your retailers?

    Thanks for all of the info John. It is very much appreciated.

    Justin Knapik
     
  16. Acceleration Racing

    Acceleration Racing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    I just finished reading through the posts here relating to tire warmers and tires, thanks... it was a good read.

    Justin (and other racers), I will be coming to all the Edmonton race events this year as the Pirelli tire vendor ( will not be racing :() and with a few years racing experience under my belt (not trying to toot any horns here.....), I have a fair bit of knowledge when it comes to tires and getting them to work properly. I have done my share of testing tires and may be able to lend a bit of guidance with this.

    I will have all the tools neccesary trackside this year, so if you would like to do some testing and see if we can get things working good for you, just let me know. I'm here to help out as much as I can.

    Feel free to contact me anytime via email or phone during respectable hours.

    I'm looking forward to geting invovled with the EMRA this season.
     
  17. racer51

    racer51 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Messages:
    313
    Likes Received:
    1
    Real Name:
    Rick Newcombe "Duke Nukem"
    experience

    Funny...Clint..."a little experience"! Sounds like it will be worth running Pirelli just to get your advice.
     
  18. Planepower

    Planepower Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    299
    Likes Received:
    0
    Real Name:
    Heiko
    Great thread - best info i have read in a long time.
    Thanks John for posting, your wisdom is extremely appreciated, and Clint - thanks for returning with a comman brand, and im sure that your knowledge will benefit everyone.
    keep posting!
     
  19. JDS

    JDS Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    0
    Agree100% with Plane, great info.

    Now do we draw straws to see which one of us buys the probe style pyrometer?:)
     
  20. sv-racing-parts

    sv-racing-parts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    Tires and Tire Warmers,

    :) Hi Clint, glad to see your are getting organized early for the Pirelli's this year, Are you going to have the 165 Slicks for the SV in stock? Please email me directly at b.layton@svracingparts.com and let me know where to call you,

    Hi Everyone, As to Tire Warmers, I will have the Suzuka by Chicken Hawk Standards at the track at $325 all in, the Suzuka Dual temps at $375, the Woodcraft Dual temps at $390 and the Full Tilt AMA Chicken Hawk Pole Position Tire Warmers At $490 All In, at the track available for pick up this year.

    I will be at every race event starting May 15 Weekend and can ship up to you earlier if you need it,

    I'll have all the usual Woodcraft, Brembo, Galfer, Race Pads and Klucky Puck Knee Sliders with me as well as Chain and Sprockets if you like. Let me know your need and I will bring it with me,

    Anyone who likes can email me at b.layton@svracingparts.com

    See you all soon,

    Enjoy the ride, and best regards,
    Blair
     

Share This Page