2019 Rule Change Discussion

[Scotia]

http://emra.ca/racers/meeting-minutes/meeting-minutes-2017-agm

^For those who read through and wondering what changes were/weren’t made.

Cheers

 

[DEFBOY35]

Hello everyone. We are just over a month away from the agm. So post JP your proposed rule changes etc here. Have discussion but keep it constructive please.

 

[Jefferson]

Jump start protocol?
If someone jump starts, and there's a restart for any number of reasons (false start/red flag before 50% etc), with current rules they get a free pass to try again at the restart. I think the jump start penalty should stand for the restarted race.

 

[Nevets]

Proposal
Increase engine displacement in lightweight superbike to 700cc or less for 2 cylinder engines (currently capped at 680cc). This would allow the FZ07 to race in this class, and bring our own classes into closer alignment with other clubs in North America.

Justification
FZ07 is comparable to SV650 and Ninja 650 bikes which are already eligible for this class.

WERA allows the following for lightweight twins superbike and superstock:
“Up to 700cc water-cooled twins with more than 3 valves”
http://www.wera.com/rulebook/?x=1098#ch9

WMRRA allows the following for lightweight superbike:
“Up to 700cc four-stroke twin-cylinder”
http://www.wmrra.com/rulebook

American SportBike Racing Association allows the following for lightweight superbike and supersport:
“Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, non-desmodromic valves, up to 800cc”
http://www.ccsracing.us/forms/2017/rules/2017 ASRA-CCS Rulebook.pdf

CMRA allows the following in the Superbike D (smallest superbike class)
“Up to 700cc 4-stroke water-cooled twins”
http://www.cmraracing.com/content.php?11-rule-book&s=602673f58f92033ef011f34c14d87122

American Federation of Motorcyclists uses the following range of engine sizes for superbike, with a note that 4 stroke twins are permitted to run one class down (limited to a 250cc advantage):
“175-250 cc
251-450 cc
451-600 cc
601-750 cc
751-Open cc”
Also, their rulebook also specifically permits the Yamaha FZ07 to compete with the 650cc bikes in Formula GP, Formula IV and Formula Twins:
“250-650 cc …….. 4-stroke twin-cylinder, plus Yamaha FZ07”
“501-650 cc …….. 4-stroke twin-cylinder, plus Yamaha FZ07…”
https://www.afmracing.org/documents/afm_rules_current.pdf

CRA allows the following for lightweight GP (includes superbike):
“Up to 700cc 4-stroke twins”
http://www.cra-mn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/CRA_Rulebook_2017_final_amended.pdf

 

[Nevets]

Proposal
Change the order of practice sessions so that the fastest racers (lowest lap times) go first, and the slowest racers go last.

Justification
The fastest racers have the most experience, and know how/when to get ready for their sessions in the morning. Novice racers, especially first time racers, could use a little extra time in the morning to get ready before their first session. This also allows time for exec members to add additional instructions for novice racers after riders' meeting if the novices don't have to rush off right away to get ready for the first practice session.

A side benefit is that if the last rotation of the day has to be cut short because of a crash, then at least the fast racers got their last chance to set a fast qualifying time before the day was cut short.

Edit:
By changing the order of the sessions, it may be possible to tighten up the rotation. Letting a slower group out after a faster group means the new group can get on track sooner because there is no fear of them catching up to the group leaving the track. Race control can let the new group enter the track as early as when the back marker for the faster group is reaching corner 3 without having to worry about mixing traffic.

This is just an idea I've had the last couple years, and if there is a good reason I'm not aware of why the Novice racers go first on practice days, then I have no problem leaving it the way it is.

 

[blam]

Jump start protocol?
If someone jump starts, and there's a restart for any number of reasons (false start/red flag before 50% etc), with current rules they get a free pass to try again at the restart. I think the jump start penalty should stand for the restarted race.

denied, because #hondapower.

but seriously. if its a race is restarted, its a restart as if nothing happened. no ifs ands or buts. same if a red flag happens, the guy that gets a ridiculously good launch loses that advantage. not only that but the people involved in the red flag get to restart the race without penalty as well.

if the race is restarted, with current running order, the penalty should stand.

 

[blam]

Proposal
Change the order of practice sessions so that the fastest racers (lowest lap times) go first, and the slowest racers go last.

Justification
The fastest racers have the most experience, and know how/when to get ready for their sessions in the morning. Novice racers, especially first time racers, could use a little extra time in the morning to get ready before their first session. This also allows time for exec members to add additional instructions for novice racers after riders' meeting if the novices don't have to rush off right away to get ready for the first practice session.

A side benefit is that if the last rotation of the day has to be cut short because of a crash, then at least the fast racers got their last chance to set a fast qualifying time before the day was cut short.

This is just an idea I've had the last couple years, and if there is a good reason I'm not aware of why the Novice racers go first on practice days, then I have no problem leaving it the way it is.

the benefit of going last at the beginning of the day is warmer pavement temperatures and a scrubbed track, which the experts will benefit from. not so much the novices. One could also argue the faster riders require more prep than the novices (there are novices that dont even run warmers)

 

[411ninja]

A race restart is a race restart - anything from the 1st race is wiped clean. You are adding a penalty to a race from a race that doesn't count.
Currently If the race is a running order restart then the jumpstart is applied and that person has to start 3 riders back in the running order.

 

[Nevets]

the benefit of going last at the beginning of the day is warmer pavement temperatures and a scrubbed track, which the experts will benefit from. not so much the novices. One could also argue the faster riders require more prep than the novices (there are novices that dont even run warmers)

Both points I had considered before.
I have wondered if the warmer track was the main reason experts go last. But I also wonder if experts might prefer the advantage of a guaranteed session in the last rotation. I'm not an expert (or even a fast racer) so I can't weigh in here.
While I agree that faster riders require more prep (re: warmers and generator etc), but they also are certainly more aware of the prep required, and are better able to get it all done in time.

Thanks for the reply Brian.

 

[Jefferson]

A race restart is a race restart - anything from the 1st race is wiped clean. You are adding a penalty to a race from a race that doesn't count.
Currently If the race is a running order restart then the jumpstart is applied and that person has to start 3 riders back in the running order.

I was unaware of the running order restart rule still applying the penalty, that was exactly what i was looking for.

 

[electrobiker86]

the benefit of going last at the beginning of the day is warmer pavement temperatures and a scrubbed track, which the experts will benefit from. not so much the novices. One could also argue the faster riders require more prep than the novices (there are novices that dont even run warmers)

Not that I do not like the idea, as a novice last year it was a bit of a panic to get out there for first session so I usually skipped it. Likely the case for whoever runs first. A consideration though, if novices practice last, there wouldn't be much of a break for them between morning practice and race on race day. Could have separate practice schedule for race day, but that could also be confusing.

 

[blam]

Not that I do not like the idea, as a novice last year it was a bit of a panic to get out there for first session so I usually skipped it. Likely the case for whoever runs first. A consideration though, if novices practice last, there wouldn't be much of a break for them between morning practice and race on race day. Could have separate practice schedule for race day, but that could also be confusing.

I typically skip the first and last session.

first session because its too cold and im helping with reg and transponders.
last session because I'm out of shape and will die. but seriously, i will typically lay down my best lap about 3 sessions in before i stop seeing any appreciation in times. i have to evaluate how much energy i want to expend for a marginal room of improvement (if any) otherwise I am too tired for race day. I cant speak for others, but running 6 practice sessions ends up making me too tired for 4-5 races on race day.

 

[Nevets]

Not that I do not like the idea, as a novice last year it was a bit of a panic to get out there for first session so I usually skipped it. Likely the case for whoever runs first. A consideration though, if novices practice last, there wouldn't be much of a break for them between morning practice and race on race day. Could have separate practice schedule for race day, but that could also be confusing.

Thanks for contributing Dave.
A counter point, the Senior Open happens after the last practice session, before the first Novice race. So novices have at least one race of down time after their practice before their race.
A better point is that any slow racers in the last practice session who are also racing in Senior Open would have no down time to get ready. That said, currently the fastest racers in the Senior Open have the same situation, and it has not been an issue.

On a different note, by changing the order of the sessions, it may be possible to tighten up the rotation. Letting a slower group out after a faster group means the new group can get on track sooner because there is no fear of them catching up to the group leaving the track. Race control can let the new group enter the track as early as the back marker for the faster group is reaching corner 3 without having to worry about mixing traffic. I will add this point to my original post.

 

[electrobiker86]

I typically skip the first and last session.

first session because its too cold and im helping with reg and transponders.
last session because I'm out of shape and will die. but seriously, i will typically lay down my best lap about 3 sessions in before i stop seeing any appreciation in times. i have to evaluate how much energy i want to expend for a marginal room of improvement (if any) otherwise I am too tired for race day. I cant speak for others, but running 6 practice sessions ends up making me too tired for 4-5 races on race day.

History shows many of the experienced folks skip first session, bores the hell out of the volunteers I can attest, which sort of reinforces Steven's point. The novices are eager and only run two races so they tend to maximize practice time. If the novices were directed at school to watch what experts do go out and ask questions at first practice, it would give time for newbie nerves to settle. I can see benefit from getting some pointers from the racers morning of day one, as opposed to hitting the cold track first, and in a panic to get out. Experienced people already know about cold track restrictions, usually. I can see pros and cons, more I think about it though, thinking Steven's original proposal may have more pros.

Glad to hear I am not the only one almost fit enough to complete all practice sessions...

 

[electrobiker86]

Hello everyone. We are just over a month away from the agm. So post JP your proposed rule changes etc here. Have discussion but keep it constructive please.

Not really a rule or change; but just floating an idea out there. Has anyone attempted a mentor-ship for novices? Basically putting together a list of racers willing to be mentors, with a list of novices seeking a mentor? Just a thought.

 

[blam]

Not really a rule or change; but just floating an idea out there. Has anyone attempted a mentor-ship for novices? Basically putting together a list of racers willing to be mentors, with a list of novices seeking a mentor? Just a thought.

that is better saved for a forum post if people are seeking mentors. not really something we would discuss at the AGM. having said that, most racers are open to helping, you just have to ask.

 

[411ninja]

On a different note, by changing the order of the sessions, it may be possible to tighten up the rotation. Letting a slower group out after a faster group means the new group can get on track sooner because there is no fear of them catching up to the group leaving the track. Race control can let the new group enter the track as early as the back marker for the faster group is reaching corner 3 without having to worry about mixing traffic. I will add this point to my original post.[/QUOTE]
We do not let racers on track until all bikes from the previous session are of track because if someone blew the flag it could be horrible. Just not safe.

 

[411ninja]

I've been wanting to propose this for a long time so it's not directed at any particular exec member this year (I even brought it up last year):

I'd like to propose that if an exec member misses more than 2 (or 3... however many) meetings during the season (or in a calendar year) that their position on the exec come into review to determine if the person is fit for exec. Vote on it or something like that by the existing executive.

Each time someone has surpassed the threshold limit, the reasons for missing the meetings will be reviewed and voted on. This does not constitute an automatic dismissal from the exec and allows the exec to use judgement/reason before making the decision (is the reason legitimate or not?).

Again, I'm not pointing fingers. I'll use myself as an example: I missed more than half the meetings last year when I was on exec due to personal reasons. I offered the exec to replace me but there was no precedent for that. Determining a replacement may be a different topic altogether.

It already is.

 

[fast316]

Wow good discussion. Kinda nice to see the club in such a good place that practice group order is the hot topic.

IMO the practice group order rule change proposal is a selfish one. Experts require the most preparation for their races, I know this for fact because I was a novice and an intermediate and am now an expert. All those years of racing have earned an expert the privilege with the club to practice in the final group. Practice rotations in all forms of racing build up in speed and skill, not down. Same reason we don't start the day with the Expert Superbike race, same reason grand prix racing doesn't start with Moto GP practice and race.

Now that I got those 2 cents in, I'd just like to say I've been racking my brains constantly to find ways to make our racing safer. Thinking about every aspect of safety and definitely taking a good long look in the mirror at my own safety, our own tech and our own rules/procedures and how it relates to safety. I think we can all do this. Having thought about this I'd like to propose the following rule changes:

1. I'd like to see medical data carriers be replaced at the start of every year. They cost $5. During the incident with Sean his medical data carrier was not readable. It's not a fix all, but I think keeping medical data carriers fresh every year could go a long ways in making sure medics have the best information possible, as soon as possible, when needed.

2. I'd like to see the $50 air fence deposit increased to $100. Track set up and the time and man power needed is absolutely critical for track safety preparation. In the future this preparation time and man power will only increase. It is clear many members are simply willing to pay the fee and skip the set up time. The funds generated from this go back into track safety and future air fence maintenance/purchases. I'd like to see more funds for safety be generated from the members unwilling to help with safety preparation. I don't mean to point any fingers, just saying take a look in the mirror at what you can do for safety and lets do everything we can. Be it donate some time or donate a few extra dollars.

 

[Julien]

Would it be reasonable to extend the lightweight open to 450cc single cylinder four stroke?

Also what about a Supermoto class like they have at UtahSBA?
Minimum displacement is 125cc two stroke, or 250cc four stroke. There is no maximum displacement limitation.
Minimum wheel size shall be 16 inches. Tires must be for road/roadracing use. No knobby or dual-purpose tires shall be used