2017 rule change discussion

[Dave86]

I think this may boil down to more of a lack of helpers? i'd be surprised if we cant find a way to streamline this a bit and save time.

I'd also like to keep the race day qualifying (despite having only run half or so of them this year) simply because I personally find it helpful to bang out some laps before my first race to get a warmed up.

I imagine the only reason people would miss saturday is due to other commitments.

I don't think anyone wants to lost morning practice on Sunday, I'm just talking about not having them as timed sessions.

We've already done what we can to make the process faster and eliminate errors by making a checklist to follow for registration, to make sure everybody is checked into their races and not missing from their grids, but the element of human error will always be there to some degree.

Having somebody to run grid sheets back and forth might cut a few minutes off the time it takes, but it's sorting out the issues with the grids and printing them off that is time consuming, and unfortunately it's not a task that can be easily handed off because it requires working knowledge of the system to figure out problems.

 

[SetUpSixRR]

We're talking about adding a Superpole session at the end of the day Saturday, if we allow qualifying Sunday morning at that point, it makes Superpole pretty much meaningless.

It's not just printing out grids, and it's not just the qualifying races. In total, it's 6 copies each of 20 races after going through them all and making any corrections, posting them up, running out copies to gate, Stu, tower and pre-grid, then once everybody has seen them, making any corrections and running out new copies.

It's a time consuming process even if everything works perfectly, and if there are any problems with the registration system it leaves basically no time to fix any issues.

If I could post them Saturday at the end of the day, it would leave time to sort out any issues then or in the morning, instead of scrambling to get it done while practice and races are already running.

Talking about adding Superpole, doesn't mean we added Superpole.

This idea basically says that you either have to participate for Saturday and Sunday or start from the back of the grid. Talk about limiting.

I think maybe we can make the existing process more efficient without kaiboshing Sunday timed practice.
Why not post the grid sheets Saturday for all the races except the 3?
Then instead of printing 6 copies of 20 races it's only 3 races. If we can't do that in the 1hr+ time slot between practice and Fast 25 then we have other issues.

 

[Cbr600rider2]

I don't think anyone wants to lost morning practice on Sunday, I'm just talking about not having them as timed sessions.

We've already done what we can to make the process faster and eliminate errors by making a checklist to follow for registration, to make sure everybody is checked into their races and not missing from their grids, but the element of human error will always be there to some degree.

Having somebody to run grid sheets back and forth might cut a few minutes off the time it takes, but it's sorting out the issues with the grids and printing them off that is time consuming, and unfortunately it's not a task that can be easily handed off because it requires working knowledge of the system to figure out problems.

I usually only show up on sunday as saturdays im usually working or trying to do husband duties, as i cant just be at the track all weekend. I would love to still see sundays practice be timed so i can atleast still have a qualifying time for sunday

 

[Dave86]

Talking about adding Superpole, doesn't mean we added Superpole.

This idea basically says that you either have to participate for Saturday and Sunday or start from the back of the grid. Talk about limiting.

I think maybe we can make the existing process more efficient without kaiboshing Sunday timed practice.
Why not post the grid sheets Saturday for all the races except the 3?
Then instead of printing 6 copies of 20 races it's only 3 races. If we can't do that in the 1hr+ time slot between practice and Fast 25 then we have other issues.

Thanks for the feedback guys. Ultimately I'll leave it up to the membership, if everybody wants registration open Sundays, I'll continue doing things as we have been.

I just want to see if there's anything we can do to reduce gridding issues.

Realistically, if registration is open Sunday then posting grids on Saturday is pointless as they could change when others register in the class, causing confusion when positions change. So I don't think there's much middle ground, it's either close registration Saturday at the end of qualifying and post all the grids then, or continue to do things as we have been - post all non qualifying grids after riders meeting, then qualifying grids at the end of the practice rotation.

 

[DEFBOY35]

Now my question becomes to go along with the current pole being conducted. How many people feel we need an entire day of practicing/ qualifying vs are good with a few practice/ qualifying sessions and racing the remainder of Saturday. Repeat for Sunday.

 

[Goatse]

How would people feel about registration cut off at the end of Saturday instead of Sunday after riders meeting? We'd still allow cancellations Sunday morning, but this would allow us to post grids (including qualifying races) at the end of the day Saturday and sort out any issues then, instead of scrambling to get it done during practice and before / during the first races.

I think this idea has positives that FAR outweigh the negatives on the change.

Anything that could clean up potential issues in the morning that delay the day is a huge step forward IMO.

Besides, I think it's pretty darn rare for anyone to put down their fastest time in the single Sunday (warmup) session.

 

[Goatse]

And just to note.

That sounds like a horrible idea

Please keep things respectful. If you don't agree with somebody's proposal, then (respectfully) point out some counters on why you feel a different route may be better.

 

[DEFBOY35]

I do like the idea of the 110-112% as well being the novice cutoff. Allows for larger novice grids throughout the year. With being safe and being able to consistently be able to achieve that time cutoff being the driving factors to be promoted up.
And have the ability for novice to run other classes such as formula 112, women's, lightweight etc to give them more opportunity to race if their equipment etc qualifies them.
In turn this will make the expert/intermediate grids larger and more competitive for everybody.
I am sure lapped traffic will play into it. But that's racing. Both safely passing lappers as well as being lapped and learning to be consistent and predictable/safe.

Running a last session superpole if we stay with a Saturday qualifying set up is a great idea and leave the 2 Sunday sessions to warming up etc. and making much more time for the people(Kendal) doing the grid sheets etc incase there is an issue. I'm sure they wouldn't mind eating a chance to practice in the morning as well

 

[Goatse]

leave the 2 Sunday sessions to warming up etc.

We only have one practice session on Sundays.

 

[DEFBOY35]

We only have one practice session on Sundays.

Touché. Ha

 

[blam]

I don't think anyone wants to lost morning practice on Sunday, I'm just talking about not having them as timed sessions.

oh, i get it now. the times wont count towards gridding. I'm with dana on this...the time saved does indeed outweigh the negatives.

Would it help if we had a monitor or screen to display the grids? hence, cutting down time required to print and post? obviously, it would cost some money for a TV or monitor which is one of the downsides. (unless the club already has one for events?)

 

[Goatse]

Would it help if we had a monitor or screen to display the grids? hence, cutting down time required to print and post? obviously, it would cost some money for a TV or monitor which is one of the downsides. (unless the club already has one for events?)

As the guy responsible for the PA system groans...


Would be a good idea if it could work though.

 

[fast316]

Personally I'd like to see us move to a schedule closer to the type that Utahsba runs. Instead of running a full day of practice on the Saturday run 3 practice sessions and then run half the classes. Then Sunday run the practice sessions do a super pole type qualifying and then run the last half of the classes.
It would take a little figuring out to get it the logistics right as far as which class goes where. The other benefit is that they have built in "flex" time which will hopefully help keep us on schedule.

As much as I don't want to take away classes from people. I think the fact as mentioned that having a grid of 5 or less bikes on track for certain time slots is not in our best interest.
I'd also like to see at least the 600sbk race run with combined grid to make the grids larger and more exciting for the people in the stands. Whether it be the 10 second gap or 2 to 3 rows.
Or perhaps it's a mixed grid. To qualify you must be within a certain percentage of pole position to enter. That would buy 30-40 minutes of schedule right there by putting those two grids back together. 600sbk &sbk

Finding and organizing volunteers for racing on Saturday might be difficult. We run pretty tight of volunteers some days, people would have to be moved around to organize scoring, grid marshals, tower flags etc. Racing on Saturday is not impossible, but it is a logistical nightmare, might waste as much time as it saves.

The superbike grids were separated for 'safety' last year, to stop slow riders from being lapped and fast intermediates from making passes they feel were dangerous against expert riders. The lap times between the fastest expert 600 and the slowest intermediate 600 vs the fastest expert 1000 and slowest intermediate 1000 are no different. So closing speeds are the same, the safety or danger is the same. By my rough math in about 8 laps a fast expert on a 600 or 1000 will catch a slow intermediate. So to say combining a 600cc race is safe but not a 1000cc race is contradictory.

 

[Goatse]

For staggered starts (specifically 600 supersport/ Open sportbike- Delaying second group by 10 seconds just increase the chance of them being caught by faster guys. Could we considering leaving 2 rows open, and having everyone start at the same lights. Fast Intermediate racers are going to catch the slower Experts anyway, and this gives them a chance to maybe follow and learn from the quicker experts. (this was a Calgary format - I remember it worked well when I was in Intermediate)

And I like/agree with this.

Fast intermediates mixing it up with slow experts is less of an issue than the experts lapping the slow/new/sometimes scared intermediates.

 

[Dave86]

oh, i get it now. the times wont count towards gridding. I'm with dana on this...the time saved does indeed outweigh the negatives.

Would it help if we had a monitor or screen to display the grids? hence, cutting down time required to print and post? obviously, it would cost some money for a TV or monitor which is one of the downsides. (unless the club already has one for events?)

I don't think we could fit the 20 grids on a TV and make it readable, there are alternatives like posting them online which is possible and I could look at, depends if everybody is willing to look up grids on their phone vs having paper posted. I could do both to begin with, if everybody likes accessing them online we could stick with that.

I think to some degree we'll have to keep paper though, it's not fair to expect our volunteers to use their own data to access grids.

 

[blam]

I don't think we could fit the 20 grids on a TV and make it readable, there are alternatives like posting them online which is possible and I could look at, depends if everybody is willing to look up grids on their phone vs having paper posted. I could do both to begin with, if everybody likes accessing them online we could stick with that.

I think to some degree we'll have to keep paper though, it's not fair to expect our volunteers to use their own data to access grids.

online for me would be great. good point on data though. i just assume everyone has it, but that is absolutely not the case.

 

[DEFBOY35]

Their is a slight difference with the 600 SBK vs the SBK race. My last point was both to be combined intermediate/expert. But it wouldn't be completely contradictory as the fast 1000's are still doing 2 seconds a lap faster than the fast 600's. Yet the slower 600 rider can still race in SBK. So the closing speeds etc would be amplified that much more against the fast litre bikes.
I do think however that it needs to be done with a cut off as mentioned before to bring back that safety factor we were aiming for with the split originally.

 

[Jason Henton]

Could the Fast25 be moved to the end of practice day, and be used as the superpole qualifying? Also, what makes the definition of an expert, or intermediate rider? Maybe thats what needs to be looked at instead of the griding process? Perhaps something like anyone who can run 120% of the previous years #1 laptime (per class) should be considered an expert, whereas below that would be intermediate?

 

[Fireman]

I usually only show up on sunday as saturdays im usually working or trying to do husband duties, as i cant just be at the track all weekend. I would love to still see sundays practice be timed so i can atleast still have a qualifying time for sunday

Do you race in Superbike, fast 25 or 600 superbike?

 

[fast316]

Could the Fast25 be moved to the end of practice day, and be used as the superpole qualifying? Also, what makes the definition of an expert, or intermediate rider? Maybe thats what needs to be looked at instead of the griding process? Perhaps something like anyone who can run 120% of the previous years #1 laptime (per class) should be considered an expert, whereas below that would be intermediate?

That decision is left up to the exec, who are all elected memebers. They consider both qualitative and quantitative factors. Lap times, attitude, championship standing, consistency, crashing etc.

Per class would not work because your expert or intermediate license covers all classes. 120% of Superbike is a 1.34 lap time. I wouldn't consider that an expert time.