2020 Rule Change Discussion

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations' started by DEFBOY35, Oct 28, 2019.

  1. SetUpSixRR

    SetUpSixRR EMRA Executive Member

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    I like the sounds of this, for simplicity. If there are multiple grids on track at once we should probably do waved starts. We would need to consider a couple things though like which race grids ahead/behind and how much time we have to get bikes rolling. We obviously can't have bikes coming around turn 3 while a race is just about to start. This should be a good discussion at the AGM.
     
  2. fast316

    fast316 EMRA Executive Member

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    Being a rider that hopes to be competitive in Dash for Cash next year, the biggest draw for me is the cash. Not that it's a lot of cash $105 for first which I've never won, and $30 for 5th, which is usual what I get. If you take most of this out each round (and it will for sure eliminate nearly all championship pay out funds, which will in turn discourage the top 4-8 riders from entering dash for cash) it just becomes another Open Sportbike race. We don't need two of those. Tires and fuel are most expensive for me so I don't have any interest in doing the same race twice. I'd pick Open Sportbike over the Dash for no Cash. I like it's spot in the daily schedule better, and it is gridded by points. If Formula 108 is just what you say and supposed to be a stepping stone to get 'MORE RIDERS' into Dash for Cash then why not keep all the race fees from both races in the Dash for cash pay out? That's win win the way I see it, the top 1-8 riders remain attracted to Dash for Cash and the bottom riders still have the same attraction, progression and they get a championship.

    All that being said, as Blam and Jeff mentioned setting up this class IS a nightmare. This is coming from guys that have been there done that, the process has been reviewed and improved as much as possible. They have spent hours every Saturday night building the grids for Sunday. Other than the executive in charge of Air fence set ups, registration/grids has the highest rate of attrition on the executive. These guys die from a thousand paper cuts for the club and this proposed new class is giving them one hundred more, no matter how you spin the rules.

    Please understand I'm trying to see things from all angles here. I'm not opposed to a Formula 108 class I'm just sharing how things look from where I am, as a competitive racer and as a current exec.
     
  3. gixxer60_0

    gixxer60_0 Active Member

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    All that being said, as Blam and Jeff mentioned setting up this class IS a nightmare. This is coming from guys that have been there done that, the process has been reviewed and improved as much as possible. They have spent hours every Saturday night building the grids for Sunday. Other than the executive in charge of Air fence set ups, registration/grids has the highest rate of attrition on the executive. These guys die from a thousand paper cuts for the club and this proposed new class is giving them one hundred more, no matter how you spin the rules.

    Please understand I'm trying to see things from all angles here. I'm not opposed to a Formula 108 class I'm just sharing how things look from where I am, as a competitive racer and as a current exec.[/QUOTE]


    Yes I get there is work and even more work when things are added to a race day from the executives point of view. You could make a sub committee with more volunteers to help with that. Even more important is that we have a race with full grids. Dash for cash is race that I do from the back of the grid. The only fun is if I can get a battle with another rider at the back. I would like to have a competitive race with a shot to win. How we set up the grid doesn’t really matter qualification or by points. Which ever is the easiest.
     
  4. Jefferson

    Jefferson EMRA Executive Member

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    The issue isn't really the grids. In reality, we could figure it out, its our job. BUT...

    Where do we stop? Formula 112, Formula 108, Formula 104? Race for only Orange bikes? When you move up into a faster class, you learn from the guy at the back, get faster, and move up the grid. That's how any competitive sport works, you don't move from class to class winning each one without getting any faster. From what ive seen, the 112/dash for cash progression works wonders, guys pick up a ton of time and speed when they move into the faster race.

    Obviously it can be voted on at the AGM, whatever the membership wants we will roll with, but that's just my $0.02
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  5. DEFBOY35

    DEFBOY35 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm formula orange, I like where you’re going with this Jeff!
    In all seriousness though. I think adding the 108 would be the last stepping stone. There is a huge jump from 1:19’s to the 1:24 or whatever that works out to be.
    It comes down somewhat to what Jon said, if you need to be doing 19’s or 20’s just to take home 5th place and be in the cash at all, why waste a set of tires and fuel just to pad the top guys wallets when you are running 5 seconds behind?

    Maybe to make the super bike race great again and help make that become the bigger grids. Maybe that race needs to be the cash race? And dash becomes sbk1/superpole race etc. I think Jon had some thoughts on something similar
     
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  6. Jefferson

    Jefferson EMRA Executive Member

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    A 1:22-1:23 would get you in top 5 in dash for cash. There will always be fast guys running 1:19s, we cant remove everyone else from their races just because they are more skilled. This is a racing club, not a trackday club. If you want to get faster it happens from riding with guys faster than you over time.

    And if its the "not being able to get top 5" issue, if that's the case, Why would people enter any race they wont get top 5 in? Oh, ill get 7th in F112 or F108, why enter those? People enter formula thunder, or sport bike, or whatever other race and get 5th-10th and its fine, but when there's cash on the line we need to make another class? I have no issue changing the payout schedule or class names, im good with that, but i think the race/time layouts are fine. It takes time and practice sometimes over multiple seasons to work to the front of one of our existing classes, and iN my mind thats how its supposed to work.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  7. DEFBOY35

    DEFBOY35 Well-Known Member

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    I’d like to see a change to the multibike transponder rule requiring multiple transponders.
    Honestly the only class that is effected with qualifying by running multiple bikes (600 vs 1000) is if you run the 600sbk class. Potential to qualify faster on the 1000 to improve 600sbk grid. That would require the 2nd transponder.
    If you are doing dash or sbk and running multiple bikes and can qualify better on the 600 than the 1000. You are not gaining any advantage whatsoever by switching to the bike you run a slower lap time on for the race.

    Transponders are not cheap. Especially with the bs subscriptions every year. I’ve heard the argument before that, well racing isn’t cheap, nor is running multiple bikes. But isn’t part of what we want to make racing as cheap as possible? It makes it easier to possibly run that extra class for the year. Putting more money into the club for every extra entry. Making the track time vs grid size have more value and all that good stuff. Not to mention more bikes on grid equals more entertaining racing for those racing as well as those watching.

    Of course, it would be the racers responsibility to ensure they swap their transponder from bike to bike for their respective classes/practices in order for any of their results to count as it is now.
     
  8. Nevets

    Nevets EMRA Executive Member

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    I have to oppose this change. Experience has shown time and time again that racers are not able to swap their transponder over from one bike to another. This results in a nightmare for timing, and lots of extra work for the exec dealing with racers trying to confirm, where they finished, and getting other racers to witness that they were indeed in front.

    That doesn't even consider the obvious implications of someone qualifying on their 1000 for a 600 race.

    It's too much to manage, and racers suck at swapping transponders.
     
  9. DEFBOY35

    DEFBOY35 Well-Known Member

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    They will learn quickly when they get a dnf and no points.
     
  10. Framer

    Framer Member

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    How about Formula 120 or 128 so I can be competitive? ;-)
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
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  11. Nevets

    Nevets EMRA Executive Member

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    It's easy to say that when you're not the guy telling someone they got disqualified.
    Racers are the whiniest bunch too. So it never goes that way.
     
  12. DEFBOY35

    DEFBOY35 Well-Known Member

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    It’s easy, Neil. You didn’t swap your transponder again. You got dq’d.
     
  13. Nevets

    Nevets EMRA Executive Member

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    Neil: But I have to do 3 races back to back. I barely have time to change my helmet. And I had to change my tires for the first race. I'm going for the blue plate this year, if you disqualify me from this race you're giving it to Brian. You're just doing this because you're friends with Brian. You didn't disqualify Eric when he forgot to move his transponder over to Sean's bike. etc, etc, etc

    Sorry Neil, Shane picked your name, not me.
     
  14. blam

    blam Administrator

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    classic neil....

    the club has been very good in the past about not DQ'ing people. because it sucks to be DQ'd for something so small and simple and traceable (tower, other racers, etc can vouch for position)

    anyone who has had the pleasure of chasing down bikes and fixing transponder issues knows its a royal pain in the ass. I challenge anyone to do it for a couple race weekends and they'll understand.

    same goes for chasing down racers to get positions and remind them to get their transponders on. in an ideal world, we have a set of executives that dont race so they have time to chase people but this is not the case and it will likely never be the case.
     
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  15. DEFBOY35

    DEFBOY35 Well-Known Member

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    I only picked Neil because he likes to bust my balls. And I can recall a couple times as a riders rep having to run around to get him sorted after forgetting to swap his transponder.

    I thought it was already in the rule book that it is entirely the riders responsibility for the transponder anyways.
    It’s one thing if it is on the bike and just didn’t work for some various reason than just not putting it on the bike. And if it’s an issue for people who often forget, I’m not saying they don’t have the option to run separate transponders if they choose to.
     
  16. blam

    blam Administrator

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    it is absolutely the rider's responsibility. it is also their responsibility they have a working transponder. and to register on time, with correct information....and the list goes on. as much as we put the onus on the riders, at the end of the day we want everyone to race and have a good time, which means running around and getting people sorted out.

    if we just gave everyone the cold shoulder and didn't try to help out the way everyone in the club as a whole does, i am sure the rider base would be much smaller.
     
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  17. OwenB

    OwenB New Member

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    I would like to see a change to the team championship.
    Every year we tend to see it be a competition of who can do the most races and always comes down to two teams whit everyone far in the distance.
    I would like to make it you can race as many races as you wish but your top 2 or 3 finishes go towards your team championship points.

    Some people don’t have the stamina, time, or money or drive to be able To Do more then 2 or 3 races.

    This will make it for teams with lightweights be able to compete and the championship will Be a close battle through the year.
     
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  18. DEFBOY35

    DEFBOY35 Well-Known Member

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    Honestly I don’t think it would be much worse than it currently is. I don’t think there will be many that actually run multiple bikes. And even far fewer that would run multiple bikes in qualifying classes.
     
  19. SetUpSixRR

    SetUpSixRR EMRA Executive Member

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    I'd like to see a change to it as well to get more teams, closer to the pot.

    But lets imagine a scenario or two and see how that would play out. Lets say this year it was a team like Eric, Me, Ryan and Ian who each do between 3-7 race races a day and win or finish second in at least twice a day for sure. There you've got 4 racers taking home 160-200 points for 2 races each. Lets say the lightweights make a team like Graham, Matt, Mark and Torin. They can have the same luck, except they only have 2-3 races available to really draw a good finish from. Whereas I would have 6 races to draw my best finishes from... if i was 35 i could do 7 a day... if Eric was 35 he could do 8 a day.

    What i'm thinking is that it will still boil down to a huge advantage for whoever does more races in a day. But it might help leverage the playing field a bit, I'm all for it. Does anyone else have an idea on how to rearrange the Team Championship scoring?
     
  20. Framer

    Framer Member

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    What if we did each team members highest score for any race in that round. So each team gets a total of 4 scores for a given round. Teams with the best finishers will score the most points each round and win the team championship, but the competition should be closer.
     
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